Pentax Spotmeter/Zone System

[Lunaray]

I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really
put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at
spot
meters!

I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model.
There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as
having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this
differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"?

I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do
any of the on-line
camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and
is it worth the few extra dollars?

Thanks all, for my continuing education!

[Mark A]

Post by Lunaray
I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really
put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at
spot
meters!
I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model.
There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as
having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this
differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"?
I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do
any of the on-line
camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and
is it worth the few extra dollars?
Thanks all, for my continuing education!
--
Ray

Calumet Photo (who purchased Zone VI Studios, the originator of the modified
Pentax and Soligors) recently stopped selling the modified Pentax spot
meters (they still sell the stock ones). They are NOT modified by Pentax.
The person who supposedly did the mods for Calumet is Richard Ritter, a
former Zone VI employee. http://www.lg4mat.net/index.html He may be able to
do a mod if you really want one.

The mods included using a better sensor and improved the baffles to
eliminate flare. But over the years, Pentax has improved their meters, and
according to some who have compared a modified meter with a stock meter,
there is no real difference anymore.

Calumet still sells some Zone Dials for $3.00 for some models. The Zone Dial
does not mean it is modified, it just makes it easy to see the difference
between Zone V (where most meters are calibrated) and the other zones
without doing any math in your head. Some people make their own dials. Go to
the Calumet photo web site and you can see the dials.

[MikeWhy]

Post by Mark A
Calumet still sells some Zone Dials for $3.00 for some models. The Zone Dial
does not mean it is modified, it just makes it easy to see the difference
between Zone V (where most meters are calibrated) and the other zones
without doing any math in your head. Some people make their own dials. Go to
the Calumet photo web site and you can see the dials.

They sell dials for the analog spotmeters the last time I checked, and a
strip label for Soligor meters. Does anyone know if the Soligor strip will
work OK on the Pentax digital spotmeter?

[Mark A]

Post by MikeWhy

Post by Mark A
Calumet still sells some Zone Dials for $3.00 for some models. The Zone

Dial

Post by Mark A
does not mean it is modified, it just makes it easy to see the difference
between Zone V (where most meters are calibrated) and the other zones
without doing any math in your head. Some people make their own dials.

Go

Post by MikeWhy
to

Post by Mark A
the Calumet photo web site and you can see the dials.

They sell dials for the analog spotmeters the last time I checked, and a
strip label for Soligor meters. Does anyone know if the Soligor strip will
work OK on the Pentax digital spotmeter?

I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. Some
people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about
the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I
have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy.

[David J. Littleboy]

Post by Mark A
I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. Some
people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about
the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I
have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy.

Exactly. You'd just cover the IRE scale with a zone scale. The Pentax
digital* has four scales (and an ISO setting) on it. The one furthest to the
back is an IRE scale (for movie work, I think), and that scale has the
pointer for the next scale (the EV scale), which is where you enter the
number displayed in the viewfinder. One could cover the 4 mm wide IRE scale
with a zone scale (with marks 5.5 mm or so apart) very easily. (The other
two are f stop and shutter speed.)

Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either
side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the reading).
So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh.

*: It's one of the most radical examples of KISS design in the history of
photographic equipment, and I love it. The other spot meters have a lot more
bells and whistles.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[Mark A]

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by Mark A
I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google.

Some

Post by Mark A
people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about
the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I
have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy.

Exactly. You'd just cover the IRE scale with a zone scale. The Pentax
digital* has four scales (and an ISO setting) on it. The one furthest to the
back is an IRE scale (for movie work, I think), and that scale has the
pointer for the next scale (the EV scale), which is where you enter the
number displayed in the viewfinder. One could cover the 4 mm wide IRE scale
with a zone scale (with marks 5.5 mm or so apart) very easily. (The other
two are f stop and shutter speed.)
Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either
side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the reading).
So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh.
*: It's one of the most radical examples of KISS design in the history of
photographic equipment, and I love it. The other spot meters have a lot more
bells and whistles.
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

I have the Soligor digital spot, which is even simpler, and there is plenty
of room for a 10 stop Zone Dial.

[BCampbell]

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either
side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the

reading).

Could you explain this further? There is a seven stop visible range
displayed on the Zone VI Studios scale. For example, if I set an EV reading
of 7 on Zone V of the scale I can see on what zone every EV from 4 to 10
will fall (i.e. I can see Zones II to VIII and tell on which of those zones
every EV from 4 to 10 will fall). From that I can also tell on what other
zones all other EVs will fall on. For example, with EV 7 set at Zone V I can
see that a reading of 10 will fall on Zone VIII. If I get a reading of 11
for something in the scene I know that it will fall on Zone IX even though I
can't see Zone IX on the scale.

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh.

I thought that zone system work with black and white film was the principal
purpose for which the meter and scale are used. That's what I use it for
and that's what everyone else I've met who has the meter uses if for (not
that I've met everyone who owns the meter of course but I've met quite a few
though attending various workshops). It would seem odd to produce a zone
system scale that can't be used with black and white film since so many
people who use the zone system use it with black and white film.

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by Mark A
I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google.

Some

Post by Mark A
people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much

about

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by Mark A
the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial

(I

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by Mark A
have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy.

Exactly. You'd just cover the IRE scale with a zone scale. The Pentax
digital* has four scales (and an ISO setting) on it. The one furthest to

the

Post by David J. Littleboy
back is an IRE scale (for movie work, I think), and that scale has the
pointer for the next scale (the EV scale), which is where you enter the
number displayed in the viewfinder. One could cover the 4 mm wide IRE

scale

Post by David J. Littleboy
with a zone scale (with marks 5.5 mm or so apart) very easily. (The other
two are f stop and shutter speed.)
Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either
side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the

reading).

Post by David J. Littleboy
So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh.
*: It's one of the most radical examples of KISS design in the history of
photographic equipment, and I love it. The other spot meters have a lot

more

Post by David J. Littleboy
bells and whistles.
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

I have the Soligor digital spot, which is even simpler, and there is plenty
of room for a 10 stop Zone Dial.

[David J. Littleboy]

Post by BCampbell

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either
side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the

reading).

Could you explain this further?

The EV scale window only extends +/- 2.66 stops on either side of the center
point: after that the scale is hidden. The third stop from the center is
hidden.

Post by BCampbell
There is a seven stop visible range
displayed on the Zone VI Studios scale. For example, if I set an EV reading
of 7 on Zone V of the scale I can see on what zone every EV from 4 to 10
will fall (i.e. I can see Zones II to VIII and tell on which of those zones
every EV from 4 to 10 will fall).

I see what's happening here. (Finally, sorry.) I can see that much too. It's
what we computer nerds call a "fencepost error". I'm looking at the span:
10 - 4 = 6, but you are counting from 4 to 10 and finding that you got 7
fingers<g>.

Post by BCampbell

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh.

I thought that zone system work with black and white film was the principal
purpose for which the meter and scale are used.

Yes. What I meant was that zone system folks use 9 stops, but you can barely
see 7 stops (and I was only seeing 6). You're right that only one stop is
missing at each end.

Post by BCampbell
That's what I use it for
and that's what everyone else I've met who has the meter uses if for (not
that I've met everyone who owns the meter of course but I've met quite a few
though attending various workshops). It would seem odd to produce a zone
system scale that can't be used with black and white film since so many
people who use the zone system use it with black and white film.

I use mine for color slide film. I'm only doing zone exposure, not zone
system things.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[BCampbell]

Post by David J. Littleboy
10 - 4 = 6, but you are counting from 4 to 10 and finding that you got 7
fingers<g>.

I knew I wasn't good at math but I didn't realize that I actually have 7
fingers. Every time I count I keep getting five. But I'll check it again.
: - )

Thanks for the explanation.

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by BCampbell

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on

either

Post by BCampbell

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the

reading).

Could you explain this further?

The EV scale window only extends +/- 2.66 stops on either side of the center
point: after that the scale is hidden. The third stop from the center is
hidden.

Post by BCampbell
There is a seven stop visible range
displayed on the Zone VI Studios scale. For example, if I set an EV

reading

Post by BCampbell
of 7 on Zone V of the scale I can see on what zone every EV from 4 to 10
will fall (i.e. I can see Zones II to VIII and tell on which of those

zones

Post by BCampbell
every EV from 4 to 10 will fall).

I see what's happening here. (Finally, sorry.) I can see that much too. It's
10 - 4 = 6, but you are counting from 4 to 10 and finding that you got 7
fingers<g>.

Post by BCampbell

Post by David J. Littleboy

Post by David J. Littleboy
So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh.

I thought that zone system work with black and white film was the

principal

Post by BCampbell
purpose for which the meter and scale are used.

Yes. What I meant was that zone system folks use 9 stops, but you can barely
see 7 stops (and I was only seeing 6). You're right that only one stop is
missing at each end.

Post by BCampbell
That's what I use it for
and that's what everyone else I've met who has the meter uses if for (not
that I've met everyone who owns the meter of course but I've met quite a

few

Post by BCampbell
though attending various workshops). It would seem odd to produce a zone
system scale that can't be used with black and white film since so many
people who use the zone system use it with black and white film.

I use mine for color slide film. I'm only doing zone exposure, not zone
system things.
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[MikeWhy]

Post by Mark A
I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. Some
people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about
the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I
have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy.

I wrote Mr. Ritter (of Zone VI fame). He pointed me to a suitable document
with printable zone dials; informed me that he cannot perform new
conversions but can repair existing ones; and noted that recalibration is
$50.

[Frank Pittel]

Lunaray <***@easystreet.com> wrote:
: I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really
: put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at
: spot
: meters!

: I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model.
: There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as
: having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this
: differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"?

: I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do
: any of the on-line
: camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and
: is it worth the few extra dollars?

: Thanks all, for my continuing education!

The Zone VI modifications are done by Calumet Camera (they bought Zone VI a while
ago) so you're not going to see mention of it on the Pentax site. One of the things
they do is add a zone scale. I heard that they do some filtering of the light to make
it more accurate for zone system use. I don't know that for a fact though.

I know a couple of people that use the modified meter and the love it.

[Mark A]

Post by Frank Pittel
The Zone VI modifications are done by Calumet Camera (they bought Zone VI a while
ago) so you're not going to see mention of it on the Pentax site. One of the things
they do is add a zone scale. I heard that they do some filtering of the light to make
it more accurate for zone system use. I don't know that for a fact though.
I know a couple of people that use the modified meter and the love it.

Calumet no longer sells the modified meters. I believe that Richard Ritter
did the mods (and ex Zone VI employee). He is at:
http://www.lg4mat.net/index.html

At one time they replaced the sensor and made it more accurate for B&W work.
Films and technology has changed in the last 20 years, and my guess is that
Pentax has upgraded the electronic components over time.

The dial is nice, but you can get one for $3.00 or make your own. When the
dial first was introduced by Zone VI about 20 years ago, no one had personal
computers that could do that.

[BCampbell]

Although a zone scale was added when the modificaitons were done, it didn't
really have any particular connection with the modification and as others
noted you can (or could before Calumet wrecked Zone VI Studios) buy the
scale for a couple dollars without having the modifications done..

Here is what the modifications consisted of according to the old Zone VI
Studios catalog:

Installation of superior photo electric cells.
Installation of a series of step down baffles to eliminate flare.
Installation of a broad spectrum infrared absorbent coating to eliminate
reflections.
Installation of four corrective filters. The infrared, ultraviolet and
visual range packs are required to match the meter's spectral response to
the spectral repsonse of the film. The filter packs are not replacements, no
existing meter ocntains any corrective filtration.
Design and construction of tools and test equipment with which the meter can
be calibrated to 1/6 stop of linearity over its range.

This is all from a sales catalong. Whether the modifications actually
achieved all of these things is open to some debate I think. I've had the
modifiied meter for many years and have liked it fine but I suspect the
meter would also be fine without the modifications.

Post by Frank Pittel
: I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really
: put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at
: spot
: meters!
: I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model.
: There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as
: having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this
: differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"?
: I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do
: any of the on-line
: camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and
: is it worth the few extra dollars?
: Thanks all, for my continuing education!
The Zone VI modifications are done by Calumet Camera (they bought Zone VI a while
ago) so you're not going to see mention of it on the Pentax site. One of the things
they do is add a zone scale. I heard that they do some filtering of the light to make
it more accurate for zone system use. I don't know that for a fact though.
I know a couple of people that use the modified meter and the love it.
--
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------

[Mark A]

Post by BCampbell
Although a zone scale was added when the modificaitons were done, it didn't
really have any particular connection with the modification and as others
noted you can (or could before Calumet wrecked Zone VI Studios) buy the
scale for a couple dollars without having the modifications done..
Here is what the modifications consisted of according to the old Zone VI
Installation of superior photo electric cells.
Installation of a series of step down baffles to eliminate flare.
Installation of a broad spectrum infrared absorbent coating to eliminate
reflections.
Installation of four corrective filters. The infrared, ultraviolet and
visual range packs are required to match the meter's spectral response to
the spectral repsonse of the film. The filter packs are not replacements, no
existing meter ocntains any corrective filtration.
Design and construction of tools and test equipment with which the meter can
be calibrated to 1/6 stop of linearity over its range.
This is all from a sales catalong. Whether the modifications actually
achieved all of these things is open to some debate I think. I've had the
modifiied meter for many years and have liked it fine but I suspect the
meter would also be fine without the modifications.

I believe those things had some benefit in the early 1980's when the
modified meters were introduced by Zone VI. The state of electronic circuits
has come a long way since then, and I suspect that Pentax made some
improvements. I also suspect that they looked at the Zone VI mods and may
have implemented some of them in the production camera. Some films have also
changed in their spectral response, especially if you use TMAX.

[JCPERE]

Post by Mark A
I believe those things had some benefit in the early 1980's when the
modified meters were introduced by Zone VI. The state of electronic circuits
has come a long way since then, and I suspect that Pentax made some
improvements. I also suspect that they looked at the Zone VI mods and may
have implemented some of them in the production camera. Some films have also
changed in their spectral response, especially if you use TMAX.

Does anyone really know if Pentax has modified/upgraded their basic spotmeters
over the years. What the changes were and when they were done? This
information would be very interesting to those looking for a used meter.
Chuck

[Mark A]

Post by JCPERE

Post by Mark A
I believe those things had some benefit in the early 1980's when the
modified meters were introduced by Zone VI. The state of electronic circuits
has come a long way since then, and I suspect that Pentax made some
improvements. I also suspect that they looked at the Zone VI mods and may
have implemented some of them in the production camera. Some films have also
changed in their spectral response, especially if you use TMAX.

Does anyone really know if Pentax has modified/upgraded their basic spotmeters
over the years. What the changes were and when they were done? This
information would be very interesting to those looking for a used meter.
Chuck

Yes, probably some current or former employees at Pentax Japan know, but I
don't think they follow this forum. It is obvious that the electronic
components, especially IC's and light sensors, have changed in the last 20
years.

[JCPERE]

Post by Mark A
Yes, probably some current or former employees at Pentax Japan know, but I
don't think they follow this forum. It is obvious that the electronic
components, especially IC's and light sensors, have changed in the last 20
years.

But it isn't obvious that Pentax changed anything. They may be just using the
same common parts for all meters. It fact it makes sense not to change
anything because a redesign costs money. And it doesn't seem like they have
ever advertised any "improvements".
Chuck

[Mark A]

Post by JCPERE

Post by Mark A
Yes, probably some current or former employees at Pentax Japan know, but I
don't think they follow this forum. It is obvious that the electronic
components, especially IC's and light sensors, have changed in the last 20
years.

But it isn't obvious that Pentax changed anything. They may be just using the
same common parts for all meters. It fact it makes sense not to change
anything because a redesign costs money. And it doesn't seem like they have
ever advertised any "improvements".
Chuck

The electronic parts that were around 20-25 years ago have all undergone
improvements. They are generally more precise and more reliable. That
includes the light sensors. But it is not likely that Pentax uses the exact
same circuit design, since newer IC's require much less labor to install,
and are more reliable, than using individual piece components. But I suspect
that just the improvement in light sensors is enough to make a difference.

I guess that it is possible that the they did not change other aspects of
the meter (aside from using better electronic parts that are now available),
even though the Japanese are famous for continuous improvement. But I am not
suggesting that all the Zone VI enhancements are incorporated into the
Pentax meters. Some changes may be inappropriate, since films have changed
over the years in the way they respond to light, especially TMAX films
(compared to non-TMAX films). Not all films respond exactly the same, so
this can never be perfect.

I have seen evidence posted on forums of people comparing a newer unmodified
Pentax digital meter with a Calumet VI modified one, and the differences
were very small, probably within the sample deviation of comparing two
production models. I don't remember if that was posted here or on photo.net.

[MikeWhy]

Post by Mark A
and are more reliable, than using individual piece components. But I suspect
that just the improvement in light sensors is enough to make a difference.

Did they also change the EV range on the meters? That would be useful,
although 0 to 20 is still plenty for me. I have an unmodified one. Maybe
response in the shadows could be better. And pointing near the sun washes
out the optics to where I can't read the display. I get around that by not
pointing it toward the sun. :-)

[Mark A]

Post by MikeWhy
Did they also change the EV range on the meters? That would be useful,
although 0 to 20 is still plenty for me. I have an unmodified one. Maybe
response in the shadows could be better. And pointing near the sun washes
out the optics to where I can't read the display. I get around that by not
pointing it toward the sun. :-)

If you have an old one, and want to know about the Zone VI/Calumet mods,
contact Richard Ritter who is the one who performed the work. His website
was posted earlier in this newsgroup (a few days ago).

If you want to know how yours stacks up against a new unmodified Pentax,
take it to a photo store and compare it.

[davidb]

Post by Lunaray
I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really
put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at
spot
meters!
I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model.
There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as
having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this
differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"?
I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do
any of the on-line
camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and
is it worth the few extra dollars?
Thanks all, for my continuing education!

In case someone here did not know, Pentax has discontinued the
production of their spot meters, both analog and digital. This has
been confirmed by both Pentax and B&H. As matter of fact, these meters
are no longer listed on the B&H website.